36 replies to this topic

[Haloi]

So many of the young Thai men I see who come to the beach regularly with their farang, don't seem to do anything in life except exist, mostly because the farang likes it that way, having them around.

Take Walter (not his real name) who says that his bf is not qualified to do anything that earns him more than
6000 Baht/month working. Walter says he'd rather have the boy around all day than "waste his time working for movie popcorn money."

Some do go to English school, a few seem to go forever, but when you eat dinner with them somtimes they seem at a loss to read even the most basic English menu.

Many Thai boys I see seem content to live that way, although I cannot imagine how they don't go out of their mind without nothing to do all day and night. Yet, I know couples who have been doing that for years.

Is this just the way that the "idle rich" farangs and their bf's are supposed to live or are these Thai guys just lazy bums who'd rather not work for a living ?

[Gaybutton]

Is this just the way that the "idle rich" farangs and their bf's are supposed to live or are these Thai guys just lazy bums who'd rather not work for a living ?

I don't think those are the only possibilities. What you posted definitely applies to many, but just as many, if not more, are far more ambitious than that.

I agree, though, that there are many boys who do take the "idle rich" route if they can get it. I don't blame any of the boys who take that attitude. If I had spent my life living in poverty stricken conditions, with only minimal education, and then came to Pattaya and ended up making my living by dancing almost nude for older men and having sex with them, most of whom cannot speak my language, and living in tenement conditions, and then one of these wealthy foreigners came along, took me out of that situation, provided me with what I was only able to dream about, and set me up living in comparatively luxury accommodations, then I would also be tempted to think twice about working for peanuts if the "farang" made it clear that I don't have to.

I don't think the "farang" are doing these boys any favors by having them live essentially as a "kept woman." I would think that helping the boy develop marketable skills and insisting that he do something more with his life beyond simply being there to satisfy whatever it is I want would be much more helpful.

[mauRICE]

If I had spent my life living in poverty stricken conditions, with only minimal education, and then came to Pattaya and ended up making my living by dancing almost nude for older men and having sex with them, most of whom cannot speak my language, and living in tenement conditions,...

Which is St Tropaz for many, compared to a moribund existence in the village, with no job or the rare possibility of being a hired hand on somebody else's barren land for less than 100Bt a day, consistently having to deal with an alcoholic, abusive father, a demanding, materialistic mother and a brother who's forever on the wrong side of the law...all the while putting on a smiling face for all and sundry to see.

[Jingthing(X)]

This topic interests me.
What percentage of the boys in the clubs who are looking for a long term thing with a local farang do you think are really looking to be helped towards a self sufficient future? My general impression is that most would love to be kept and if pressured to advance themselves, would start looking for a farang who would keep them. Not sure if I'm right about this. Also, of course, many of them aren't looking a long term thing anyway really, even if they say they are if they think thats what we want to hear.

[wowpow]

Jingthing got it right. Thai boys and girls who have a farang do not thing it is necessary for them to do anything. Farangs rush around trying to get them to "improve' themselves but often their heart is not in it and they just go through the motions to oblidge.

There are the few who do grasp the opportunity and build businesses and/or educate themselves but from what I see these are the exception.

Luck and fortune play a much bigger role in Thai's outlook. Effort and reward are not necessarily linked.

[Gaybutton]

I agree with Wowpow. From what I have observed, many have a very low self esteem and simply have learned to believe they are nothing and are destined to remain so. Most are in their late teens to mid twenties and haven't been to school for years because there was no money for them to go to school. Many believe it is already too late for them to amount to anything in life, therefore they believe it is pointless to try, even when someone is willing to help. Many who are more ambitious believe that even with a university education, unless it is a highly prestigious university, they'll still end up with a nowhere job. Many also believe that the fact they come from a poor family means they are in a lower class. It's a feeling of worthlessness and resignation to the idea that there are no other possibilities for them, with or without help.

I also get the impression that many feel that the only reason to work is for money. That's what they've seen all their lives and most jobs available to them are dead-end jobs that cannot help them become anything more in life than they already are. It's hard to feel ambitious or take pride in a job when the most you can hope for is to be able to say, "Do you want fries with that?" There is little job satisfaction, few rewards, and many end up working for bosses that treat their dogs better than their employees.

Meanwhile, the "farang" already has plenty of money, in their eyes, so the feeling is something like, "If I already have a "farang" taking care of me, then what's the point of working for a couple hundred baht a day?"

Those feelings can be overcome, but in order to do it the "farang" will have to be much more than just a boyfriend. He'll have to become a trusted and respected father figure along with it and believe me, that's not easy, especially if it's a long distance relationship. They've also seen many relationships that started off well, but the "farang" eventually became frustrated, gave it up, and "finished" the boy.

[smiles]

Perhaps one answer to the dilemna (seems obvious to me) would be to put some serious effort into looking around for a Thai boyfriend who is not only somewhat closer to your own age (HORRORS!!! ) ~ i.e. let's say 15 years your junior, instead of 25 or 30 ~ and/or a Thai 'man' who has not been in the sex business since he was 16 or 17.
Going this route may well increase your chances of finding a decent & honest Thai man who is at least reasonably independent.

I doubt however that many of the denizens here will bother to attempt that more difficult route.

Regarding GayButton's sanctimonious cliche that he has " ... also seen many relationships that started off well, but the "farang" eventually became frustrated, gave it up, and "finished" the boy... " I might add that I have also met a few Thai men who have 'finished' with a particular Farang because he was a controlling asshole.

Cheers ...

[UncleSam]

Perhaps one answer to the dilemna ...would be to put some serious effort into looking around for a Thai boyfriend who is ...let's say 15 years your junior, instead of 25 or 30 ~ and/or a Thai 'man' who has not been in the sex business since he was 16 or 17.

In other words, find an older lazy bum you can't even try to change for the better.

When I was 20, I always thought my dad was a controlling asshole too.

Hehehe....

[smiles]

" ... When I was 20, I always thought my dad was a controlling asshole too. Hehehe...."

Undoubtedly he was , seeing how you turned out.

Heeheehee ....

[Gaybutton]

I might add that I have also met a few Thai men who have 'finished' with a particular Farang because he was a controlling asshole.

No kidding. Really? Thank you for pointing out the incredibly obvious.

[Jingthing(X)]

Yes, I have met some "older" guys, 25 to 35, but then you are dealing with mysteries of their past, and many seem to have sex worker pasts and are just looking for a later career keeping situation. Of course, there are many exceptions. I certainly wouldn't reject someone because they were 30 if I fell for him.

However, getting real here, sexually I am most interested in the 19 to 25 set, so since there are so many in this group wanting to be with a farang, why not? Back to the bum question, say you met a 20 year old and loved him and decided to keep him, and he wanted to be kept. Suppose you just didn't feel like being the heavy and pushing him in any way to do anything productive for his future. Except wait for him to take the initiative, and the initiative never comes. Would you be morally in the wrong, stealing this boy's youth? If so, stealing it from what? Slave like work in a rice field, coolie, or clerk, or years of dangerous work in the sex trade? Aren't they better off being kept, even if it temporary, which of course it is? Why is it our role to be fathers? If we are keeping a lovely young man as a lover, why do we have to be their fathers too? Doesn't that kind of mess up the dynamic?

[NYCGuy]

Would you be morally in the wrong, stealing this boy's youth?

Hell no. It's the boy's decision to buy financial security by using his youth as currency. Many Thai boys are far better off financially for a lifetime by settling down with one farang, rather than playing the field and ending up an unemployed ex-hooker, turned pauper, by their late 30's.

[francois]

Very good topic, Haloi and much of interest to me. My bf was drifting in the direction of doing nothing of much value but chance has intervened. A business friend offered him a job to learn a trade which could make a big difference. Plus I talked the talk, change or else you will not have a future.
Francois

[ausian]

this topic interests me also,
two things I have difficulty with are the petty theft and the lying. The lying I have always put down to misunderstandings between English and Thai verbal translation, but it continues over minor things to the extent that I feel I am told what he thinks I want to hear, followed by "I tell you alleady". The petty theft is also minor such as taking my aftershave to his room without informing me, because he likes the smell.

These incidents are minor, and if it was one person, I would put it down to upbringing or opportunism but I have to believe that I am a magnet for this sort of thing as it has happened to me so many times.I dismiss the incidents, as life is for livivg, not getting angry, but they do leave a sour taste in my mouth.

Is it just human nature, or is more entrenched in the Thai youth, or perhaps it is just that I am a forang and don't understand

[Jingthing(X)]

Ausian,
Not that I will ever really understand Thai culture, some ideas.
Poorer Thais live communally. There is much less of an emphasis on private space and private property. They share what they have when they have it. You as the "rich" farang have so much, if you don't share also, they don't understand. Also, of course harmony is very important. Better to tell a lie if that is what you want to hear, that is the greater good. Do they think this is a lie like we do? I don't think so.

That, and many are just common thieves like anywhere in the world where money hungry young men hook up with rich, fat old queens. Oh well.

[Palpatine]

You don't have to "work for a living" to be productive. There are many things that young guys can do, read and study that improve their skills and knowledge.

My impression of most "kept boys" here in Thailand, however, is that they do nothing productive unless pushed by their farang and many end up just the opposite: with bad habits like wasteful spending, gambling or drugs.

[Jingthing(X)]

You don't have to "work for a living" to be productive. There are many things that young guys can do, read and study that improve their skills and knowledge.

My impression of most "kept boys" here in Thailand, however, is that they do nothing productive unless pushed by their farang and many end up just the opposite: with bad habits like wasteful spending, gambling or drugs.

Thais aren't big readers. And thats an understatement. Being a serious person in Thailand is not valued, and people who read alot are considered serious.

[wowpow]

I am not at all sure about Gaybutton's thoughts on worthlessness and low self esteem. There is a concept that in this life if you get a bad deal it is because you did something bad in a previous life and you are expected to endure so that you you can progress towards Nirvana. In this life this is only changed by luck such as winning the lottery or even better finding someone to "take care you". You get lucky if Buddha smiles on you. The whole work hard and improve your lot ethic does not exist.

The lowly farmer type, that we farangs mostly meet, are at the bottom of the class scale. It is easy for us to forget that this is a very highly structured class society. We do not see the varieties of wais made. As farangs we automatically get high status and treated like Queens which many find acceptible. The Isaan farmer may know that he is at the bottom of the pile but that does not mean that he is worthless any more than an honest craftsman of old would have done. He owes respect and deference to those higher on the scale and receives it from his children, family and neighbours especially if he lives a good respectable life.

I was thinking about this "respectability" recently as a friend of mine has been helping a Thai student in the US and meets often with the boys family. His Mother is a Teacher and his Father a Bangkok businessman and local Magistrate. His sister became pregnant at 16 years old and the family are in trauma at the disgrace. His Mother has resigned her job and the Father stays in Bangkok and will not go back to the village. Termination is not seen as an option. They are a lovely caring family and the local mores seem incredibly harsh in this day and age.

[Jingthing(X)]

Wowpow,

I do get the impression that most lower class Thais are trained to accept their low place in society and don't believe that personal effort is going to lift them from that place. But on a personal level, that doesn't mean it has to translate as low self esteem. In fact, many seem to be burdened with unrealistically high self esteem based on the reality of what they can offer society.

[dolypardon]

I think that the older Farang who lives with his young Thai b.f. must take good care of the young Thai. b.f.
Not only money wise but also help him to become a smart person in life.
My two x.thai.bf's where not allowed to do nothing. They had to study English,had to do there homework,had to make nice dinners and invite friends to our house. Even they had to make our bed( not the job for our house maid) ( had to wash our car) ( not a job for the carwash) I think if the farang give to much freedom to his young Thai lover they will become lazy bitches. If you live in Pattaya send them to sunday school, let them study English etc etc. The farang has to parent over the young Thai boy and learn him to become a social member of the society, not a lazy asshole.

[Jingthing(X)]

Interesting, Dolly.
I don't want to be a parent. Is that OK with you?

[mauRICE]

Ahhh, but there's also the poor but smart, ambitious boy who wants to do something with his life and I've met a few. Very often, boys in this category are self-starters and require only a modicum of moral and/or financial support, without the fatalism, apathy and indolence we've almost come to expect from our "boys". Interestingly enough, these boys don't particularly appeal to farang because they're usually outspoken, independent and do not do the virgin whore routine that makes walling wallets out of grown men.

However, if you are interested and are able to find such a boy, you must be prepared to let him go once he is ready to spread his wings, otherwise you'd end up an embittered old man like a good friend of mine. My friend is 60 this year and lives in Pattaya. Twelve years ago, he met an 18-year-old Thai boy who was fresh from the farm, so to speak. The boy, despite his little education and exposure to the outside world, was intelligent and inquisitive. He also displayed a clear artistic streak. As true as PIN to ATM, my friend fell in love with the boy. He put the boy through school and later, design college, and supported the boy's family.

The boy did well and was accepted into the prestigious La Salle fine arts school in Singapore. And if you cynics out there are expecting a monstrous turn in the boy's character at this point, I'm sorry to disappoint you. Except for some minor hiccups, their relationship remained fairly strong, until a few years years ago. The boy had begun to realise that there was a whole new world out there for him. New friends, new opportunities, a whole new horizon that went beyond Buddha Hill in Pattaya. The boy met and fell in love with a Singaporean guy one year his junior who had studied at the same school and they decided to start a design consultancy in Bangkok. The consultancy is doing well and they are happy together.

What of my friend the farang in good ol' Patters? Well, the boy, being the decent guy that he is, was always honest with my friend and wasted no time in telling him of their changed situation, his new love and mission in life. My friend the farang superficially gave them his blessings but deep down he was shattered. He had wanted to grow 'old' with the boy, which under the circumstances, was more than a tad unrealistic. He had little in common with the boy twelve years ago and even less so now. Back then, he could at least play father/banker/door mat to the boy but now the boy doesn't need anything from him. The break up has been catastrophic on my friend; he had grown terribly dependent on the boy, both emotionally and for day-to-day matters. Like so many other lonely gentlemen in Pattaya of a certain age, he now spends his evenings with a flute of sherry before dinner, a carafe of port after, and a whole bucket of gin till bedtime.

In the above situation, you really can't put the blame on anyone. It would be almost criminal to ask a 30-year-old with such potential to play handbag to a whinging 60-year-old whose sole mission in life is to wake up every morning so that he can amble his way to Jomtien and gabble on with his friends, only to repeat the same routine in the evening, but in the bars. On the other hand, shouldn't the farang be entitled to some form of emotional pension for his ten-year investment? I don't know. All I can say is that one has to be careful the next time one asks for an ambitious boyfriend and be prepared to allow the laws of nature to take their course.

[Hedda]

Like so many other lonely gentlemen in Pattaya of a certain age, he now spends his evenings with a flute of sherry before dinner, a carafe of port after, and a whole bucket of gin till bedtime.

Sherry, port and gin, Maurice ! Gawd, I hope I never fall into that kind of 19th Century rut.

Make mine chardonnay, bordeaux or cabernet, thank you.

The only difference between being a parent and lover of young men is that parents have the inate ability to let go of their love and be happy doing it. Too many old men break in the process of letting go and try to fill the void with booze and resentment.

In my opinion, the worst thing you can do as an aging expat is to treat some young Thai man as the indispensible ingredient to your happiness growing old. Love and treat treat 'em like your best Golden Retriever, who's here to make you happy for awhile, but not forever. But always leave room in your life for poodles, shitzus and the occasional mongrel so that, when the times comes to part company, you bend but not break.

[Jingthing(X)]

Hedda, I agree, we can't think that these relationships are permanent. I beg to differ about your parent comment. Parents don't bugger their sons (well, hopefully not). Sons don't bugger their parents for you bottom daddies.

Parents generally start when the boy is a baby, not 20. I am sorry, these boys are NOT our children. They are adults. Whatever qualities they are ever going to have in life, they already have them at 20. We can be emotionally supportive beyond money, offer our advise (as if we know about Thai culture to have good advise) if it is well received, but I think pushing and nagging an adult is a no no.

[Rainwalker]

Lorelei Lee: Don't you know that a man being rich is like a girl being pretty? You wouldn't marry a girl just because she's pretty, but my goodness, doesn't it help?

My farang partner of 20 years is 18 years my junior. When we met, he was 21 and I was 39.

I financed 3 degrees, bolstered his moral, watched him grow. He gave me joy, forced me to think about new things, shared my life.

Still does even though I live in Vancouver and Pattaya and he's lived in New York City for the last 5 years because that's really the only place that he can practice his profession.

He has enough money to retire now at age 41-- I'm a professional investor and was in charge of creating wealth for him - but he still has a need to achieve and is enjoying his very specialized career so he won't be joining me here in Thailand.

And yes, I've found a Thai lad, age 21, and we've been together for a year. He's at university and who knows what his future will turn out to be...

I hope it will be a good one.

But for sure, he'll go wherever he needs to go in his life and I'll be there with him, cheering him on, providing what support I can for however long we remain together.

Every day is a new chance to decide to change our lives and some times, to grow, we have to leave things, and people, behind.

“And the day came when the risk to remain tight in a bud was more painful than the risk it took to blossom.”
---- Anais Nin