31 replies to this topic

[Danny]

I met my Thai in-laws for the first time less than two months ago but I am getting worried that I will be seeing too much of them now. Since I started living with my young bf, we have been receiving frequent visits from the mother and two sisters, both of whom are now looking for work at bars in Pattaya. They come at all hours without warning.

I told my friend recently for the first time that I am not happy with having the family stayoing so much here with us. His response was basically: If you love me you must love my family too. I guess there is some truth to that statement but I still would like to be left alone.

I have avoided so far from telling the mother directly that they have to go because I don't want to get into any confrontatioin with her. She is a tough broad from the looks of things, and I'm 10 yeras older than her, and she seems to have total control over the family, including my bf.

Does anyone have any experience or suggestions on how I can get rid of my unwanted in-laws without losing my bf in the process ? I don't think I can take living like this for too much longer.

[Gaybutton]

Does anyone have any experience or suggestions on how I can get rid of my unwanted in-laws without losing my bf in the process ? I don't think I can take living like this for too much longer.

Unfortunately, my experience tells me you're either going to have to tolerate it or scratch one boyfriend and start the search for another.

I always advise people to establish the ground rules before permitting a boyfriend to move in, especially when it comes to the family. Apparently you did not do so, and you're learning a bitter lesson the hard way. I learned the same lesson, also the hard way.

You can try, but I think the odds are that you'll lose the boyfriend. You can't allow yourself to be afraid to let that happen. You need to make it clear to him this is your home. It's not a hotel. His family is just that, his family and you're not going to buy into this thing about 'if you love me you also have to love my family.' You'll have to point out to him that you don't love his family any more than he loves yours and you're not about to tolerate having your wishes, lifestyle, or privacy invaded any longer. You would never do that to him and you're not going to have him do that to you. I would tell him you don't want to lose him, but you will if you have to. I would point out that when he moved in, nothing was ever said to you about all of a sudden here comes the family, right along with him, any time they please and it will be often.

I would tell him if the family wants to stay at your home, then they are to call first and ask your permission, and you're not going to give your permission unless it's something you wish to do and there are to be no arguments about it. I would make it crystal clear to him that if he doesn't tell them, then next time they show up you will.

Visiting once in a while for a day or two is once thing, but just showing up any time they please, without even bothering with advance notice, expecting to stay there as long as they want, is not acceptable. It's an unreasonable imposition and it's taking advantage of you. It might be part of the Thai culture, but since we're talking about your home and your money paying for it, then you are just as entitled to have your own culture respected as he is to have his respected, especially in your own home.

You're going to have to stand your ground on this or you're going to be stuck with this problem for as long as your relationship lasts with this boy. You also have to be willing to lose him if it comes to that. It's not going to be pleasant or easy. He'll be angry. He'll sulk and pout and probably make your life miserable for a few days, but you'll have to stand your ground, difficult as it might be. If you give in or even compromise there will be no end to it.

If it helps anything, a former boyfriend used to do that to me. When I finally had enough of it I told him that he better call the family and let them know that I won't put up with it anymore and if they show up again, totally unexpected and uninvited, with no permission from me, then I'm not going to let them come in and I'll give them an address of an inexpensive hotel. My bf actually asked me if I would be willing to pay their hotel bill if I do that. Of course I said absolutely not. He was furious with me and threatened to leave. I told him I won't give in to threats and I'm not going to have an argument about it. I told him if he wants to try to force me to have to live this way or else he'll leave, then I'll help him pack right now.

He didn't leave.

[Snowy]

Although I have not suffered from a similar situation through never being a permanent resident, I do have a fair inkling of the Thai psyche and I am afraid that you are going to be stuck with the in-laws permanently if you don't put your foot down and stop this happening very soon. It is part of Thai family culture where those working or in a bread winning position are expected to help the rest of the family. Lets face it, that's the main reason why so many boys (and girls) come from rural areas to try to make money for the rest of the family by working in the 'entertainment industry' in the big towns.

I once did go with a b/s to stay in a hotel in Surin, near where his family lived, where we intended to base ourselves for five days whilst we toured the Issan area and took in the annual Surin elephant festival. Several younger members of his family turned up on the first evening and I was left in no doubt that they expected to be invited to tag along with us on our days out. I refused to let them join us and cut the stay short (to just two nights) and moved on to Chiang Mai instead. Needless to say the b/s was not very happy as he had lost considerable 'face' with the family. He sulked for the rest of the trip and our relationship came to an end within days of getting back to Pattaya.

GB's advice - "You're going to have to stand your ground on this or you're going to be stuck with this problem for as long as your relationship lasts with this boy. You also have to be willing to lose him if it comes to that..........If you give in or even compromise there will be no end to it". - is very sound and you should take it. If that means risking losing your b/f you need to accept it - (just imagine what it will be like if the mother and two sisters do find work in the bars in Pattaya - they could well be expecting to live with you permanently or worse still start turning up with their customers!).

[Khor tose]

GB, that sounds like great advice. How about expanding on it. Besides wanting his family to have assess to your home, what other things might a Thai expect you too accept that you must look out for (Friends, temple charity, cleaning, jobs, etc.)? What I am trying to ask for, and I know it is hard to generalize, is what are the obvious pitfalls (like the one you discussed) that you or others who have had Thai BFs know about? What different cultural expectations have you run into when a Thai moves into your home?

[Gaybutton]

worse still start turning up with their customers!

Good point. Snowy is right. I know of two situations. One was an uninvited sister staying with a friend of mine. Her boyfriend had some sort of problem with his own family, or so my friend was told. He was actually asked to let this sister's boyfriend, someone he had never even met, stay in his home for a few days while the sister went to Bangkok on some kind of business.

The second situation was not a customer, but a boyfriend. A different farang this time. His bf's sister was staying, uninvited. My friend tolerated it for about a week until one day he came home and found the sister and her bf having sex . . . in his bed! Five minutes later they were out the door.

[luvthai]

You might offer to help the mother find an apartment of her own so they wouldn't be staying with you. Explain that you'll help until they have located jobs and can pay their own rent. You will need to be firm or you will not have much privacy and will often find your pocessions missing and iun the local pawn shop.

[Gaybutton]

How about expanding on it.

That's a difficult thing to address, since there are so many variations that can occur with different individuals and situations. In my own experience, when the aunt and uncle, along with their two kids, used to just show up, they did clean up after themselves and they did contribute to the food fund, although it was the hot, spicy Thai food that I couldn't eat in the first place and it stunk up the house. When we would go out to eat, I was expected to pay the bill, although every so often the uncle would pay at least part of it.

That part of the family really were nice people. That wasn't the problem. The problem was the invasion of my privacy. I felt totally awkward in my own home. I couldn't watch the TV programs I wanted to see. I couldn't get to the bathroom when I needed it. I had to tiptoe around my own home when they were asleep. I couldn't go anywhere without them tagging along. I had to keep a supply of extra toothbrushes on hand because if it's anything I can't stand, it's someone else using my toothbrush, and they would do just that. There were dozens of little irritations like that. Individual irritations don't mean much, but when you add them all together, now you have a major irritation.

I was extremely uncomfortable with the whole thing when they were here. I could handle it for a short while, and not often, but that was about it. The way I see it, I didn't work my butt off all my life to end up being made uncomfortable in my own home with people I hardly know and don't really care to know in the first place. I understood it was the boy's family, so I was willing to tolerate it to some degree.

They were nice people, but they were also a pain in the neck because I never knew when they would show up. They never called first. One time they showed up at 2:30 AM and came in as if it was the middle of the afternoon, expecting a warm welcome. Another time they showed up while my bf was out of town. I tried to pretend I wasn't home. That didn't work. They just camped outside until I opened the door hours later. I had to act as if I had been sleeping and didn't know they had come, out of embarrassment. Sometimes we would be coming home from someplace, and when we arrived, there they were.

I did establish ground rules, at the time, about supporting the family. I couldn't afford that and I wouldn't have done it even if I could have afforded it. But at the time, the idea of family members showing up unexpectedly hadn't occurred to me, so I had never said anything about it. Even when they did show up the first time, it still didn't occur to me that it was anything more than a one-time thing. Wrong. Once I let it start, they would start showing up any time. It was making me a nervous wreck, never knowing when the next knock on my door would come.

One time I had an incident when five family members showed up in the middle of the night. They had all been working as laborers in Bangkok. They had worked two months. When it came time for them to be paid, the boss skipped town and they were paid nothing. They had no money at all other than enough to make it to my house. I ended up having them stay for a couple days, feeding them, and paying their bus fare back to their home town.

You do have to try to anticipate the potential problems. Of course, there will be plenty of problems you never thought of. The ones you did think of will be the ones that don't happen. After all, these boys usually come from poor families and they have little or no experience with farang other than being taken off once in a while. They don't realize that your culture is any different from theirs. People simply dropping in and staying, sometimes for days, is routine for them in their home towns. They've never known a lifestyle any other way. It doesn't occur to them (or at least they pretend it doesn't occur to them) that it might be great for them, but intolerable for you.

I had another incident when the Bangkok relatives showed up, this time with the bf's rice farming father from the hinterlands. They showed up at 12:30 AM. The father had never visited before. He was one of those people you can't pry away from the home town, so I knew something was up. I found out what it was the next morning. He told me he is about to get his annual loan from the bank for the rice farm. He asked me if I could let him have 20,000 baht for a week until the loan comes through. He swore up and down he could pay it back a week later. I was pretty naive about things at that time, so I had no reason to doubt him. I gave it to him. That was seven years ago. Of course, I'm still waiting for even one baht of it to be paid back.

People have to decide for themselves what the ground rules ought to be. For me, my own ground rules are as follows. I couldn't handle it any other way. I would not live with a boy unless he can agree to these and agree willingly:

1. Here is how much money you can have each week. If you spend it, too bad. Nothing more until the following week on the designated day. No borrowing against next week's allotment. When we do things together, I'll pay. If you're going out with your friends, that comes out of your weekly allotment. If your friends come to eat, go to the beach with us, or do anything else with us, I don't pay unless I'm the one who invited them or at least gave permission, and you ask me in private, not right in front of them.

2. I will not support your family in any way. I will not give any money to any of them under any circumstances. No new roofs. No sick grandmothers. No dead water buffaloes. No nothing. If it's a dire emergency, a matter of life and death, I will do what I can afford, but even then only if I can verify the emergency before I part with one baht.

3. No unexpected visits from family or friends. If somebody wants to come, then I want to know in advance who is coming, how many are coming, and how long they expect to stay. If I do not wish to have visitors, that's the way it will be, period. If they want to visit they can stay three days. Anything more than that, then they check into a hotel. They pay their own hotel, food, and expenses.

4. You have to work and/or go to school. I won't be your sole means of support. I am, however, willing to cover school expenses, but only expenses I can verify. Don't even think about saying, "You don't trust me." You're right. I don't trust anybody. That's why I have survived so long.

5. If you want to be with your friends, I have no problem about that. But you go to them. I don't want them partying here.

6. When we're doing something together, like watching a movie, sex, having dinner, or anything similar, that phone of yours gets turned off.

7. You can listen to all the music you want. Just wear earphones so I don't have to listen to it.

8. If we are watching TV together, we watch something we both like and we both can understand.

9. The first time you ever tell a serious lie to me, as soon as I realize it you're gone.

10. When we eat together, whether cooking at home or going out, we eat foods and at restaurants we both can enjoy.

11. If situations arise that are problems I didn't anticipate with these rules, then I reserve the right to establish more if I see a need.

As I said, I couldn't be happy living any other way. If the boy doesn't want to agree, then we don't live together, simple as that.

There is another problem. Sex. Living in a gay paradise like this, I'm not willing to limit myself to only the bf. Many of these boys understand the difference between love and physical sex. If I am living with someone I wouldn't do it often, but when I do feel the need, I won't be inhibited. Him too. Even if he insists differently, I know he doesn't want to limit himself to a fat old man, old enough to be his grandfather. I wouldn't want him to have to limit himself to me. I would want, however, the Bill Clinton philosophy of 'Don't ask, Don't tell."

I admit that after living in Thailand for as long as I have, I've become jaded and cynical about things. A close friend, someone who had been living here much longer than I, gave me some advice years ago, advice I often wish I had heeded. I think he really latched onto something when he said, "If you want love in Thailand, rent it."

[mauRICE]

Some wise words from Gaybutton and pretty spot on advice. Certainly very different from the GB we used to know way back in 1999 with the rose-tinted glasses still firmly perched on his nose. Unlike most farang here, GB has obviously learnt from his experiences.

After all, these boys usually come from poor families and they have little or no experience with farang other than being taken off once in a while. They don't realize that your culture is any different from theirs. People simply dropping in and staying, sometimes for days, is routine for them in their home towns. They've never known a lifestyle any other way. It doesn't occur to them (or at least they pretend it doesn't occur to them) that it might be great for them, but intolerable for you.

Dropping in out and out for short periods of time in the day may be common but staying many nights uninvited and cleaning out your host's food cupboard - the very anthithesis of kreng jai - would be considered very bad manners in rural Thailand. Close relatives staying over would often come bearing gifts of dried food and knick knacks to offset the host's expenses. The idea is to not burden your host and for everyone to have a good time at a budget level that is comfortable for everybody. And if your host gives any subtle indication that you've overstayed your welcome, you LEAVE. As simple as that.

Persistent gauging and freeloading are symptomatic of poor social skills and low moral values - made worse by having easy access to a farang cash cow. Unfortunately the ones inflicted with this disease are usually the ones who have no problems sending their kids to Pattaya and Patpong to sell their bodies.

That said, there's no reason why you can't have a workable living arrangement with a lot of COMMON SENSE and the kind of framework GB suggested.

[mauRICE]

I admit that after living in Thailand for as long as I have, I've become jaded and cynical about things. A close friend, someone who had been living here much longer than I, gave me some advice years ago, advice I often wish I had heeded. I think he really latched onto something when he said, "If you want love in Thailand, rent it."

Not cynical, GB, just wiser. It takes a lot of candour and confidence in one's self to see the scene for what it really is and for someone of considerable experience and influence in gay Thailand affairs to publically admit it is truly refreshing.

GB's nuts-and-bolts constructive advice, borne out of tried-and-tested personal experience, is what we need to see more on these forums, not the jai dii-I-took-a-rent-boy-to-the-dentist-and-therefore-I-am-better-than-you-self-congratulatory-rubbish that we too often read about here. Equally useless are the empty and vague exhortations to understand Thai culture when very often the writer clearly has no clue about Thai cultures (yes, there is a range of Thai cultures) or if indeed, the object of his lust comes from a background that practises his culture as it should be practised.

[Khor tose]

First: Thanks you GB. This time I cut and pasted this info for future reference. Thank you also Maurice for explaining some of the culture that applies to Thai behavior.
Second: I agree with an open relationship for both you and your BF, especially when there is a great age difference. That sounds wise and practical to me. However, where do you have sex? If he is bringing people to your house, and he is young, I am sure he is selecting for sex, and not for moral character. I am not sure I would invite some of the same people into my home that he may want to invite. On the other hand, how can I deny him the right to bring someone home for sex if I am doing so? My house or not, that does not seem fair. Without being to personal, how do others with an open relationship solve this conundrum?

[mauRICE]

I agree with an open relationship for both you and your BF, especially when there is a great age difference. That sounds wise and practical to me. However, where do you have sex? If he is bringing people to your house, and he is young, I am sure he is selecting for sex, and not for moral character. I am not sure I would invite some of the same people into my home that he may want to invite. On the other hand, how can I deny him the right to bring someone home for sex if I am doing so? My house or not, that does not seem fair. Without being to personal, how do others with an open relationship solve this conundrum?

Not a conundrum at all. If you want to avoid complications, your matrimonial home should be off-limits for extra marital liaisons. Don't worry about him or being fair; he's Thai and he'll know where to go. If you can afford it, set up a pied-à-terre for yourself, a tiny but well-appointed shoebox somewhere in the city should do it. Otherwise, there are plenty of by-the-hour motels all over Thailand for this very purpose - fidelity has never been a strong Thai trait.

[Gaybutton]

Not cynical, GB, just wiser. It takes a lot of candour and confidence in one's self to see the scene for what it really is and for someone of considerable experience and influence in gay Thailand affairs to publically admit it is truly refreshing.

I appreciate that, mauRICE. You're right. Since living here on a permanent basis, I've learned plenty . . .

[Gaybutton]

Without being to personal, how do others with an open relationship solve this conundrum?

mauRICE's advice is good. In my case, we had no problem about either one, or both of us bringing a boy home. That's when a second bedroom, comfortable couch, or some other form of furniture can come in quite handy. Sometimes my bf and I would go out together and we would each off a boy. I'd bring my boy back to the house. He would go with his boy to the boy's room. There are also plenty of short time rooms available.

Some of my friends who enjoy an open relationship with their boyfriends have different methods. One friend tells his boyfriend he is bringing another boy home for sex. No problem. As a matter of fact, it's a treat for the true boyfriend because he gets some money to go out and have a great time with his own friends. He usually shows up again some time the next morning.

One of my closest friends has a code, sort of an inside joke with his boyfriend. If he wants to bring a boy home, he calls the boyfriend and says, "I have good news for you." That's the boyfriend's signal that he gets a night off to do as he pleases.

Believe me, there are many ways to work it out. You just have to come up with ideas that work well for both you and your bf.

[Laddie]

There's a lot of rules being laid down here but no one seems to address the central issue raised by the boy: if you love me, you will want to help my family too. Like Tina Turner sang, most guys here seem to think: "What's love got to do with it ?" My bf has a very large extended family and they never intrude on our home without advance warning and permission. I guess I am lucky. Or maybe all those rules don't work if you haven't found the right guy TO LOVE. It strikes me that you souldn't be living together in the first place if you want to trick out at your convenience.

[Gaybutton]

It strikes me that you shouldn't be living together in the first place if you want to trick out at your convenience.

I think it depends on what you want out of life. If 'tricking out' works well for both the farang and the bf, and upsets neither of them, then what's the problem?

I don't understand why you said, ". . . no one seems to address the central issue raised by the boy: if you love me, you will want to help my family too." I thought I addressed that quite thoroughly.

I think you are very lucky if you're living with a boyfriend and had no need to establish agreements first. If it is working out smoothly and happily for the two of you, then you're in great shape. Let's hope it stays that way.

[J.Bell]

It seems to me that the kind of "open" relationship being described is more like roommates than lovers or "boyfriends" , especially when there are such elaborate procedures set up to make the system of infidelity work smoothely. I can see where a couple might like to pick up a boy for a menage to add variety to their sexual fun, but this idea of each partner having his own sexual life is not my idea of a "relationship."

[Gaybutton]

this idea of each partner having his own sexual life is not my idea of a "relationship."

Well, it's my idea of a relationship, an ideal one at that. So much for the saying, "you can't have your cake and eat it too." If it works well for both parties to the relationship, and both have no problem with it at all, and both view it as a positive attribute of the relationship, then I repeat my question: What's the problem?

[DollyLamma]

I repeat my question: What's the problem?

I don't think Belle was saying it's a problem, if it works for you. He was simply suggesting that the kind of sexually open-ended arrangement is not his idea of what a "relationship" is all about. My neighbor has a 30 pound white dog she insists is a toy poodle. It's makes her happy to think that, even if the neigbors know otherwise. Different strokes for different folks.

[Gaybutton]

My neighbor has a 30 pound white dog she insists is a toy poodle. It's makes her happy to think that, even if the neighbors know otherwise. Different strokes for different folks.

Now there's a perfect relationship! She doesn't even need the ground rules . . .

[francois]

My bf is an orphan so no problems with the family. Also no long listes of do and do not. Actually no listes just a mutual comprehension of one and the other.

[Taxi driver]

I spent the first year of my relationship very much in lust with a young Thai guy who is 32 years younger than me. It's evolved since then over 6 years into a much stronger relationship - without sex. We each enjoy our butterfly flights without jealousy and my guess is that I'll die with him at my bedside. If that's not a "relationship," then I'll settle for whatever it is.

[Gaybutton]

If that's not a "relationship," then I'll settle for whatever it is.

Well said!

[tdperhs]

I go to Thailand because they define relationships differently from the way we define them in the west. I don't like the western way. If I did, I'd save a fortune in air fare.

[Gaybutton]

they define relationships differently from the way we define them in the west.

I would be quite interested in your take on how Thais define relationships. In what ways, in your opinion, are the relationships different?

[tomfin]

I did not notice any comments about the "boyfriend" loving the farang. Did I miss something? Or is that the Tina Turner talk.