31 replies to this topic

[KhunArt]

I have a problem which has been brewing for sometime now and I'm not quite sure how to deal with it. I've known my Thai bf for almost 10 years and through that time I've helped him finish his high school equivalency and start his college degree. He grades are OK, nothing to shout about. Frankly I find them quite disappointing for a full time adult student with no responsibilities. He's been doing his BA for five years now and still hasn't graduated. He started off majoring in Chinese and now has switched to travel management because Chinese was "too hard". Hopefully he will graduate in the summer of next year. The thing is he now wants to do an MBA. Now I've got nothing against him studying, on the contrary I encourage him but he's been a mediocre student at best. His last job was the bar I took him out from nine years ago and he hasn't held a job since. He is 30 this year. I have a feeling he just wants to drag out his academics and enjoy the cushy life for another two-three years. I told him that he really needs to get out there and get a job or he will lose out in terms of experience. He is very stubborn and gets into a mood when I try to reason with him. He says I'm being "stingy". What do I tell him?

[Bob]

After reading your post, my first thought was "damn, we must have the same boyfriend!" Mine is 31, started college aiming at a tourism degree, later started with the Chinese and then dropped it because it was "too hard", and then switched to a business communications degree. Mine took 6+ years to finish and is now at a trainee job at immigration (and very unlikely to get a job there as only the cops and their families generally can get jobs there). And the job market is extremely bleak in Thailand (and, frankly, those that get the good jobs typically get them because they were born into them or "know" who they need to know).

Seriously, I have no advice to offer other than to try to talk it out with him. Sometimes I think I should have set some groundrules (like no more than 4 or 5 years of college) at the beginning; however, I didn't (in spite of seeing the same issue crop up with many of my friends' and relatives' kids here in the states).
In any event, good luck.

[KhunArt]

Thank you for sharing Bob. I know about the job situation as my bf has given me an earful on it. My bf's problem is that he has unrealistic expectations. He thinks with a degree, a nice shirt and a tie he can walk into a job in management making 30,000 Baht a month! I told him it just doesn't work that way, even in the States. You have to work your way up. He has had a couple of job offers from friends of mine with businesses in Thailand and they were offering him 8,000 Baht a month which I was told is not bad at all for someone with no experience and a party school degree - which he hasn't even got yet!

EDITOR'S NOTE: This post was edited to remove the repetition of the preceding post, which our rules discourage.

[Bob]

I told him it just doesn't work that way, even in the States. You have to work your way up. He has had a couple of job offers from friends of mine with businesses in Thailand and they were offering him 8,000 Baht a month which I was told is not bad at all for someone with no experience and a party school degree - which he hasn't even got yet!

Not to sound too cynical but you generally only get a decent job in Thailand if you're related to somebody or have some special "in" with those hiring - and that's pretty much regardless of your education level or whether you wear a tie or whatever. Quite parallel with much of the US, some of the best jobs (salary and benefits and longevity) in Thailand are government jobs - post office, immigration, cops, etc.

I do believe many of the college age kids do like the college life and are a bit afraid to enter the real world of having to work but that's fairly common everywhere in my view. 8,000 baht a month isn't much but it's better than what he's making now! (hmmmm.....sounds familiar, I'd guess, to both of us....hehehehe).

I've told him for years (seems like decades now....) that he has to get a good job so he can support me. And, for years, he gives me that "what-the-hell, you-takin'-yaba" look in response every time.

While I'm at least happy that the last tuition payment was made a couple of months ago (shit, you even have to pay tuition for doing a trainee job that pays nothing!!!! Go figure!), I've gotten myself in the mode of not worrying about it anymore. Even if we break up some day (hell, it'll be 10 years we've been together this year), I won't regret a minute of it and he'll have gotten an decent education (nobody in his family even completed high school). Such is life in the big city, I guess.

[Bernard]

I think you are being too cynical or perhaps misinformed. My boyfriend got a teaching job after he graduated from the Rachabhat (sp?) fifteen years ago by simply applying for it. He's basic salary was 6,000 THB! His parents were fishermen from Chumpon. He had no contacts or "big fish" friends anywhere and the only "fish" they knew were in the sea. He just worked hard and got good grades. He didn't like his first school as the students had terrible discipline issues but he stuck with it as he was just grateful to be employed and being his own man. He remained in the system and now brings in 18,000 THB and enjoys a few perks as a government employee. I suppose it's easier to slam an entire system when things don't go your way and divert attention from your own shortcomings.

EDITOR'S NOTE: This post was edited to remove the repetition of the previous post, which our rules discourage.

[Bob]

My boyfriend got a teaching job after he graduated from the Rachabhat (sp?) fifteen years ago by simply applying for it. He's basic salary was 6,000 THB!

My guess is things were slightly different in 2005 (a couple of years before the financial collapse in Thailand) but, nevertheless, congrats to your bf for his persistence and good fortune. I'm sure it's possible for some non-connected graduates to land a decent job these days but, in general, it seems to be fairly bleak out there for job seekers. Or at least that's all I've heard from a few in Chiangmai who have been looking for a fairly long time.

[DOLLY]

The story of the older farang with young Thai boyfriend, frequently rescued from the bar scene, who turns into a career student or unemployed house fixture seems to be a very common one in Thailand. The pair usually end up leading separate lives which come together at dinner, birthdays and trips overseas. Sometimes, the Thai guy has a wife and kids back home which the farang helps support or the Thai guy is gay and has his own Thai boyfriend(s) on the side. The farang leads the dual life of benefactor and butterfly as the two turn into happily married couple leading joint and separate lives.

The whole thing can work pretty well if the couple are secure enough to give each other breathing space and the Thai isn't afraid he'll get dumped when something better or younger comes along. The biggest danger I have seen is that the younger Thai gets bored without steady employment and starts drinking or taking drugs, especially if he gets too isolated from his own peer group.

[tdperhs]

He has had a couple of job offers from friends of mine with businesses in Thailand and they were offering him 8,000 Baht a month which I was told is not bad at all for someone with no experience and a party school degree - which he hasn't even got yet!

I am pulling at straws here, but does he have to contribute to his overhead? If he gets food, clothing, and shelter from you, that 8,000 less taxes (minimal) is a damn good income.

What I see here, and have seen elsewhere, is a lot of enabling going on. The actions of the Thais is not only predictable but normal. It is the reactions of the farang that is abnormal. When did it get to the point where your Thai boyfriends came to believe they can get away with this. When I was that age, if I lived with someone like you, I probably would have done exactly what these boys are doing, only on the other side of the world. All right, so you're in love, BFD. And you're afraid if you get tough with him, he will leave you (in a pig's ass; it took him too long to train you), or you have fantacies where you see him destitute and lonely lying in the gutter, one meal away from death's door. (Violins and cellos up on "Willow, Weep For Me.")

What so many farang boyfriends do by allowing these bf's to become post-pubescent spoiled brats is deny them the opportunities they might have had to learn some self-discipline and to function within the behavior parameters open to them. These boys want to go to school? Fine. Help them get employed at a fast food place, a supermarket (Slip the manager at Big C 5,000 baht and see if that doesn't get your boy a job). Then subsidize his education by offering him matching funds justified with expense receipts. No education is more appreciated than one that involves self-sacrifice.

Remember, unless you are going to live forever, he is going to have to fend for himself again one day. When that time comes, his increased age will make him less marketable as a farang boyfriend. Are you helping him to meet the challenges of being alone again?

[UncleSam]

Are you helping him to meet the challenges of being alone again?

With what I'm leaving him, he won't be alone for long. He can buy a young farang boyfriend.

Hehehe...

[Bob]

I am pulling at straws here.....

Interesting and probably well-intended comments but, until you walk in Khun Art's shoes (or mine) and know a little more about the background, I'll simply agree with your comment noted above.

[luvthai]

I would explain to the boyfriend that you have paid for everything and if he wants to further his education after he graduates that he will need to contribute 50% towards his continuing education. A part time job would not be unreasonable.

[Sexpat]

With what I'm leaving him, he won't be alone for long. He can buy a young farang boyfriend.

It sounds funny, but I have known a few Thai men who inherited enough money from their departed farang to live comfortably "retired" before reaching 40. You figure that if a wealthy retired farang age 65 meets a Thai guy aged 23 and the farang dies at 80, the Thai is only 38.

[Hedda]

While I agree that there's a need to try and make sure that your "kept boy" doesn't turn into a bum, a drunk or worse, one of the things to remember when you think he's showing signs of being lazy is that many of these young Thai men who hook up with older farangs for financial security already have a long history of employment from a very young age, long before they met you.

My Thai companion started working at age 7, helping his mom to string jasmine blossoms at 5AM, so that they would be ready to sell on one of Bangkok's busy highways when rush hour began. He did that 7 days a week until age 16 when he went to work in a bar. His father was away working construction in Singapore in order to send money back to support five kids, the three youngest of whom were being raised in Issan by his older sister, who was barely a teenager. When I met him at age 22, he had 15 years of hard work already racked up, living essentially from hand to mouth. I figured he could use some time off for good behavior.

[Lucas]

The story Hedda tells about his b.f. is same as mine.

my b.f. was very happy to be able to study.
It was always his dream to develop himself.
At the age of 22 he started Sunday school for a few years.
He had a lot of home work todo and I was very happy that he was home.
Now he is at a school at Trapasit road, studying computer,bizniss etc.
He was also studing( a few years) English at the A.U.A school.

I like it when my b.f. likes to study.
I don't like my bf to work for such a little money the Thai's pay.
It gives me more satisfaction if my boyfriend study instead of working for a very low salery.
My. b.f. can study whatever he likes as long as he proofs that he study very hard,stays home and be a good and trust-full b.f.

I am so happy that my b.f. likes to study so hard, I am kind of proud on him.

[gay_grampa]

His father was away working construction in Singapore in order to send money back to support five kids, the three youngest of whom were being raised in Issan by his older sister, who was barely a teenager.

A more practical use for the money would have been a Vasectomy

[TheYenta]

A more practical use for the money would have been a Vasectomy

It's a shame your father didn't have one sooner too, you mean old man.

[mauRICE]

My Thai companion started working at age 7, helping his mom to string jasmine blossoms at 5AM, so that they would be ready to sell on one of Bangkok's busy highways when rush hour began. He did that 7 days a week until age 16 when he went to work in a bar.

Yes, some Thais are hardworking and have a strong sense of familial obligation. In my experience of working with Thais from disadvantaged backgrouds who are given the opportunity to further their studies by our organisation, I have noticed that they are eager to start working as soon as they complete their studies. They want to support their parents and siblings and give them better opportunities, not languish around on campus. For the appreciative poor, an education serves an instrumental purpose, namely to get a job, not just a motivational pursuit that is the luxury of better-off Thais or those with indulgent sugar daddies.

I don't disagree that some college kids can be terribly fickle with their majors but I would think that that luxury is less available to mature-age students for whom time and money is of the essence. The beauty of being a mature-age student is that you would have had some life experience to help you with your decisions in college. Moreover, most college students who change majors would have to live with the consequences of their actions viz lagging behind their contemporaries in the job market, bigger student loans, etc and not have the luxury (there's that word again) of milking their cowed cash cow to pay for their failings.

At the end of the day, this is not a Thai vs farang, Asian vs Western issue. It is about individual failings and the people who enable them by always providing that safety cushion. Hence, nothing is learned and the cycle of abuse is perpetuated.

[Lucas]

The story Hedda tells about his b.f. is same as mine.

except my b.f. didn't work in the bar till he was 22.
I was kind of!? the first farang.

( for your kind information, its so relaxed that I or me and my b.f. can post here nowadays without the interfearings of you know who )

Thanks moderators for letting us be what WE are.

[Haloi]

The biggest disappointment I see in encouraging a Thai friend to get more education is that it does not seem to result in any great increase in his or her earning capacity. I used to know a massage guy at the beach who told me he could make more money as a masseur than teaching in school. The Thai woman who acts as the receptionist at the desk in my condo spent four years getting her diploma and ended up in a job that pays 7000 baht/month, which would barely be a living wage if she didn't live with a farang boyfriend. Education does not seem to open the kind of doors to opportunity as it does in western countries.

[tdperhs]

Education does not seem to open the kind of doors to opportunity as it does in western countries.

Agreed. But we must also realize that in the near future, an event will take place in the Kingdom of Thailand that will probably generate some monumental political-economic changes. A person with a degree will certainly be in a better bargaining position than one without.

[KhunArt]

I am pulling at straws here, but does he have to contribute to his overhead? If he gets food, clothing, and shelter from you, that 8,000 less taxes (minimal) is a damn good income.

No, all rent, food and expenses are covered by me and that's not going to change if/when he gets a job. His income is his and what's mine is ours. I just don't want him to fall behind his contemporaries in the market place (well actually he is already behind). I don't think I'm setting a good example for him with my "retirement lifestyle". He really should be getting out there and seeing what other Thais his age are doing. All his friends are Thai men/women attached to farang or his "buddies" from the "business". They seem to have no goals other than to wait for their farang to die and inherit which is somewhat disconcerting to me. A few do have "business ideas" which are so high falutin that they have no way of achieving. And I agree 8,000 Baht is not to be laughed at. It's a decent salary for someone with zero relevant experience. You're right, I have been a bit of a pushover and frankly my patience is wearing thin.

[TheYenta]

They seem to have no goals other than to wait for their farang to die and inherit which is somewhat disconcerting to me. A few do have "business ideas" which are so high falutin that they have no way of achieving.

Perhaps you are looking at it from the wrong angle. These young Thai men may consider their role as companion to a financially comfortable elderly gay farang as the best long term business investment they could make. They may see work outside that role as a second - and undesirable - job, especially if they lack confidence in the farang's long term commitment and fear they might be replaced if absent too much.

[mauRICE]

I don't think I'm setting a good example for him with my "retirement lifestyle". He really should be getting out there and seeing what other Thais his age are doing.

In other words, he hasn't got a role model. But it's not your fault. You've earned your retirement. He did not see the thirty-forty years of hard work that you put in to be able to enjoy the life you have now. And I bet you accomplish more in a day than he does, even now. Thais think people who have money get it from some magic tree that grows in their backyard and not through hard work, discipline and sacrifice. It's the way their dog-eat-dog culture operates; you can only get ahead by stepping on or depriving someone else.

Really, what your boyfriend is now is largely not your fault. You might have made it worse by indulging him but most people's values would have been concretised by the age of twenty. He is a product of his environment and the shoot-yourself-in-the face culture he grew up in. Remember, it takes a village to raise a child and all that. How do you 'raise' a thirty-year-old man? Think about it; he could be worse off. Instead of you, he could be stuck with a buffet-raiding, chain-smoking, cancer-chasing, walking heart attack. Think of the kind of example that farang would be setting his boyfriend.

[Poppy]

Wow, sounds like KhunArt and I are in the same boat. My bf is 29 (although he likes to tell people he's 25) and he graduated five years ago. He's never had a full time job as far as I know. He's not a moneyboy. We met in a non-commercial bar just after he had broken off with his Dutch boyfriend and hit it off instantly.

Like you, I don't have a clue as to how to get him off his ass and into a job. He tends bar twice a week for 6 hours each time and finds that tiring and wants to quit! He gets up at 2 at everyday, smokes and drinks heavily. As Maurice says, how do you motivate a 30-year-old?

[mauRICE]

He's never had a full time job as far as I know. He's not a moneyboy.

If he's never had a full-time job, how has he been supporting himself?